perm filename MAIL.RLL[RLL,DBL]8 blob
sn#739912 filedate 1984-01-27 generic text, type C, neo UTF8
COMMENT ⊗ VALID 00018 PAGES
C REC PAGE DESCRIPTION
C00001 00001
C00004 00002 ∂16-Dec-82 2112 Lee Erman <LErman at SRI-KL> RLL wallowing
C00019 00003 ∂Tue 15 Feb 83 19:10:29-PST <CSD.LENAT@SU-SCORE.ARPA> [MSIMS@RUTGERS: A question about Eurisko/AM.]
C00033 00004 ∂29-Mar-83 1121 CSD.GREINER@SU-SCORE [Gavin Hemphill <hemphill@NRL-AIC>: rll-1 paper]
C00040 00005 ∂17:15 21-Apr: kwh@mit-mc, agre@mit-mc/cc, csd.lenat@score/su RLL info
C00044 00006 ∂16:39 13-May: de2smith@sumex/su CORLL Stuff
C00045 00007 ∂11:56 7-May: mann@isib,lenat@score/su RLL Code
C00052 00008 ∂13-May-83 1459 MANN@USC-ISIB Re: Info, and Thanks
C00073 00009 ∂18 May 1983 0532-PDT RTAYLOR at USC-ECL RLL
C00080 00010 ∂16:17 1-Jun: kwh@mit-mc, RTAYLOR@USC-ECL, wes, LErman@sri-kl, MSIMS@RUTGERS,
C00085 00011 ∂16-Jun-83 0528 MSIMS@RUTGERS.ARPA Re: RLL code
C00091 00012 24-June-83
C00094 00013 ∂2 Jul 83 14:37:33-PDT Carroll Johnson <CJOHNSON@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> RLL
C00109 00014 ∂11:44 7-Jun: clayton@sumex/su CORLL & RLL
C00113 00015 ∂14 Jul 83 23:34:26 PDT norvig%UCBKIM@Berkeley (Peter Norvig) RLL
C00119 00016 ∂15 Sep 83 1153 EDT (Thursday) Alan.Sobel@CMU-CS-A RLL Documentation
C00127 00017 ∂15:45 20-Sept: bhayes-roth@sumex, lenat@sumex/cc/su CORLL System
C00129 00018 ∂13-Jan-84 1345 ssc-vax!dlk@uw-beaver RLL
C00136 ENDMK
C⊗;
∂16-Dec-82 2112 Lee Erman <LErman at SRI-KL> RLL wallowing
To: DLENAT at SRI-KL, RDG at SU-AI
Doug and Rus,
This is to reiterate my conversation with Doug this evening:
I would like to bring up at Teknowledge some RLL system that I can use for
my educational benefit. I particularly would like to have a reasonably
extensive example use, to rummage in and play with. I would expect other
Tek folks might also want to play.
Doug and I agreed I would get back to you two the week after Christmas, and
that would be a good time to prevail on you for some help.
thanks,
Lee
-------
∂TO LErman@sri-kl, dlenat@sri-kl/cc 11:34 29-Dec-82
re: RLL (s)wallowing
Lee -
It's not clear just what RLL's state *really* is these days.
The most up-to-date version had been at USC-ISIB, on the <MANCOM.RLL>
directory. Unfortunately there is no guarantee that that system is working;
the ISI "liason" left the project rather abruptly (for personal reasons,)
in the middle of a bundle of alterations. If you still have an account there,
and ISI's good will, perhaps you could play with it there for a bit...
A prior implementation was up and running at Rand, but, as
Rick can tell you, not only did that project all-but-die,
(at least with respect to its RLL association,) but Rand-Ai TOPS20 itself left!
And as for me, personally: I have gone on to work with MRS, and will
eventually bring up RLL's good features within that system.
However, if all of this doesn't dissuade you, do give me a call
at 497-1863, and I'll try to help (... "to bring up an implementation", not
"to further discourage you").
By the way, how are you finding picturesque, pastoral, pleasant
Palo Alto? Are you still recorder-ing?
Russ
∂Tue 15 Feb 83 19:10:29-PST <CSD.LENAT@SU-SCORE.ARPA> [MSIMS@RUTGERS: A question about Eurisko/AM.]
To: CSD.GREINER@SU-SCORE.ARPA
Please send Michael Sims, at Rutgers CS Dept, a copy of RLL.
Thanks
Doug
---------------
Mail-from: SU-NET host SAIL rcvd at 15-Feb-83 1632-PST
Received: from SU-DSN by SU-AI with PUP; 15-Feb-83 16:30 PST
Received: From RUTGERS by SU-DSN.ARPA at Tue Feb 15 16:27:14 1983
Date: 15 Feb 1983 1925-EST
From: MSIMS@RUTGERS
Subject: A question about Eurisko/AM.
To: Lenat@SU-AI
cc: Msims@RUTGERS
Doug,
Saul Amarel said that you will be sending along some listings and a
copy of RLL. I am most grateful. I feel that I have a much better
chance of doing interesting work if I can learn from your experiences.
There is one point about Eurisko/AM that is puzzling me. I have
gotten from your writings that when Eurisko attacked the domain
investigated by AM, that it did not perform better than AM. Of course
there are things which Eurisko does and AM does not do, eg., the
discovery of heuristics and the flexibility of representation and
control. Since Eurisko does so much more than AM it is natural to
expect Eurisko to be less efficient. Also it seems most reasonable to
me that Eurisko did not discover new heuristics there because of the
extensive past investigations of number theory, as you have suggested.
However my impression is that the encoding of AM's knowledge base in
the more general framework of Eurisko didn't offer any advantages.
This issue of power is important to me, because my system will
probably sit closer to AM than Eurisko. I am hoping that I can trade
some of the flexibility and generality of Eurisko for power in a
specific application domain. Ignoring issues of the learning of
heuristics (a very big if to be sure), do you think this kind of trade
off is possible? Practically this sort of trade off seems my only
choice if I want to pursue this line of research. Attempting to build
a system with the scope of Eurisko seems out of the question with the
kind of time scale I have for getting a degree.
Let me know what you think. Thanks.
-Michael
-------
∂26-Feb-83 1742 AGRE@MIT-MC [Nth attempt to send this, apologies for any lossage.]
Received: from SUMEX-AIM by SU-AI with PUP; 26-Feb-83 17:19 PST
Received: from MIT-MC.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Thu 24 Feb 83 08:51:28-PST
Date: Thursday, 24 February 1983 02:31-EST
Sender: AGRE @ MIT-OZ
From: AGRE @ MIT-MC
to: greiner @ sumex
cc: AGRE @ MIT-OZ
Subject: [Nth attempt to send this, apologies for any lossage.]
In-reply-to: Msg of 24 Feb 1983 00:50-EST from AGRE
Russell (Russ? whatever), I was speaking with Doug Lenat a couple weeks ago
about Eurisko, and he mentioned that there is a paper that describes RLL in
fair detail. (I've got the AAAI-80 paper.) I'd much appreciate it if you
could send me a copy, and a pointer to the source code too if that's OK, and
a copy of the CORLL paper and code if that's OK too, and anything else that
I might find useful in writing RLL-like and Eurisko-like things myself.
Thanks alot.
Phil Agre
MIT AI Lab
545 Tech Sq Rm 711
Cambridge MA 02139
net: AGRE@MC works best
∂TO csd.lenat@score 16:13 3-March-83
Favors
Doug -
I sent Phil Agre a copy of the RLL papers, together with some MRS
stuff. Mailing the code is a bit more difficult: ISI's machines automatically
archive all files which have not been accessed for X amount of time,
which means that essentially all the RLL source code is currently "offline".
I could ask Bill Mann to retrieve it, but that will cost us a favor.
Is it worth it? Or should I point Agre and Sims to Mann directly?
Finally, I could simply (naively) send them my ISIB account and password,
and let them "learn" about off-line files, and methods of retrieval.
Other suggestions?
----
On other fronts: I talked to Johann the other day, and came away
pondering/discouraged/confused. Could we meet sometime soon to discuss it?
One particular issue is how to encode the domain facts:
whether in my current, rather procedural (production rule based) manner,
or in a more declarative (deKleer-ative?) manner.
... and does any of this make any different, for a analogizing system which
strives to be impervious(sp) to idiosyncrasies of representations?
Anyway, my schedule is open, as always. When is a good time for you?
Russ
∂03-Mar-83 2356 CSD.LENAT@SU-SCORE Re: Favors
Come over 2:30 on Tuesday.
Point Phil to Mann.
We will disucuss proc/decl on Tues. -- don't get depressed!
Doug
-------
∂TO 16:42 4-MAR-83
CSD.LENAT@SCORE/SU Re: Favors
Doug -
What should I do wrt Micheal Sims, of Rutgers?
Point him to Mann as well?
Also, Johann deposited my copy of MI3 the other day; did you pick it up?
See you Tuesday, 8/March, at ParcPlace.
Russ
∂04-Mar-83 1909 CSD.LENAT@SU-SCORE Re: Favors
Yes, same ptr.
I picked up MI3 and it is on my desk in MJH
See you Tue
Doug
-------
∂14:56 7-Mar
MSIMS@RUTGERS, AGRE@MC, CSD.LENAT@SU-SCORE/cc/subj RLL: ↑Code & ↑Documentation
Michael, Phil,
You should soon be receiving the (outdated) RLL documents you requested,
by snail mail. That bundle has been augmented with miscellaneous MRS
documents, for reasons which will be clear later. Providing the actual
code has proven a bit more difficult.
Some background: About a year ago, in the interest of graduating, my time
and energy shifted from RLL czar to thesis-ing. Others, including Dr
William Mann and some of his coworkers at USC/ISI, continued to develop
and augment RLL. For that reason the most up-to-date version had been at
USC-ISIB, on the <MANCOM.RLL> directory. Unfortunately there is no
guarantee that that system is working; the ISI liason/principle-updater
left the project rather abruptly (for personal reasons) in the middle of a
bundle of alterations. Furthermore, much of the needed code has been
archived (and deleted). To access it will require either competence with
the TOPS20 retrieval command, or some ISIer's assistance; or more likely,
both. MANN@ISIB may be able to provide the latter, or at least point you
to the right person. As this letter implies, you have both my blessing
and encouragement to examine/use/update whatever code you can; and my
permission (subject to Dr Mann's approval) to use that ISI account.
I personally am coding in MRS these days, and eventually hope to bring up
(all and only) RLL's good features within that system. As the documents
show, the two systems are fairly similar in theme and capabilities; the
major differences (wrt me) lying in the facts that someone else is
responsible for its adminstrative and technical support, promotion, etc.;
and that MRS, having a larger "constituency", will probably be maintained
(if not for perpetuity at least for a while).
However, if all of this doesn't dissuade you, do give me a call at (415)
497-1863, and I'll try to help ("... to bring up an implementation", not
"... to further discourage you").
Russ
RDG@SAIL (or GREINER@SUMEX)
∂29-Mar-83 1121 CSD.GREINER@SU-SCORE [Gavin Hemphill <hemphill@NRL-AIC>: rll-1 paper]
Subject: [Gavin Hemphill <hemphill@NRL-AIC>: rll-1 paper]
To: rdg@SU-AI.ARPA
cc: csd.lenat@SU-SCORE.ARPA
Return-Path: hemphill@nrl-aic
Received: from nrl-aic by SU-SCORE.ARPA with TCP; Tue 29 Mar 83 07:40:07-PST
Date: 29 Mar 1983 08:57:39-PST
From: Gavin Hemphill <hemphill@NRL-AIC>
To: csd.greiner at su-score
Subject: rll-1 paper
Defence Research Establishment Atlantic,
Box 1012,
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia,
B2Y 3Z7
Tel: 1-902-426-3100 ext. 189
Dear Russell Greiner,
I have just finished reading your interesting paper,
"RLL-1: A Representation Language Language", which is an expanded
version of the paper published in AAA-80. I'm keen to learn more about
RLL.
A version of the UNIT PACKAGE (see 1 below) is being used in
our research to build an expert system to interpret acoustic data.
(We've taken to calling it UNIT*.) Last year, I implemented an object-
centered approach for inheritance roles in UNIT*. I concluded that more
of the package would have to be changed to an object-centered implementation
before it would be truly extensible. Imagine my delight to find that you
had already designed another language to do just that!
What is the current status of the RLL project? Can you tell me
more about the implementation details of RLL-1? How different is RLL-1 from
the UNIT PACKAGE? I would appreciate answers to any of these questions and
any other information available about RLL. I may be reached at the above
address or by sending NET mail to G.HEMPHILL at SU.SCORE.
I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Ann Dent
1) R. G. Smith and R. E. Friedland, Unit Package User's Guide,
DREA TM 80/L, Defence Research Establishment Atlantic, Dartmouth,
Nova Scotia, Canada, December 1980. (Also published as HPP-80-28,
Heuristic Programming Project, Stanford University. )
-------
∂16:02 30-Mar: G.HEMPHILL@SCORE, CSD.LENAT@SU-SCORE/cc/subj RLL: ↑Code & ↑Documentation
Dr Dent,
It's not clear just what RLL's state *really* is these days.
About a year ago, in the interest of graduating, my time
and energy shifted from RLL czar-ing to thesis-ing.
I am personally coding in MRS these days, and eventually hope to bring up
(all and only) RLL's good features within that system.
These two systems are fairly similar in theme and capabilities,
(as both grew out of the same meetings, several years ago;)
the major differences (wrt me) lying in the facts that someone else is
responsible for its adminstrative and technical support, promotion, etc.;
and that MRS, having a larger "constituency", will probably be maintained
(if not for perpetuity at least for a while).
Let me know if you would like me to send you the set of MRS documents.
Returning to RLL, proper, a form of its code does still exist, sorta.
Dr William Mann and some of his coworkers at USC/ISI continued to develop
and augment RLL even after I left. For that reason the most up-to-date
version had been at
USC-ISIB, on the <MANCOM.RLL> directory. Unfortunately there is no
guarantee that that system is working; the ISI liason/principle-updater
left the project rather abruptly (for personal reasons) in the middle of a
bundle of alterations. Furthermore, much of the needed code has been
archived (and deleted). To access it will require either competence with
the TOPS20 retrieval command, or some ISIer's assistance; or more likely,
both. MANN@ISIB may be able to provide the latter, or at least point you
to the right person. As this letter implies, you have both my blessing
and encouragement to examine/use/update whatever code you can; and my
permission (subject to Dr Mann's approval) to use that ISI account.
Anyway, if all of this doesn't dissuade you, do give me a call at (415)
497-1863, and I'll try to help ("... to bring up an implementation, and/or
to discuss the ideas of RLL/MRS", not "... to further discourage you").
Russ
RDG@SAIL (or GREINER@SUMEX)
∂17:15 21-Apr: kwh@mit-mc, agre@mit-mc/cc, csd.lenat@score/su RLL info
First, I just spoke with Wes, who told me he was going to use Doug's
rll system, rather than my hard-to-access ex-system.
Second, below is a list of the KBs I had, as of 1982:
(Do realize I've not examined these in years -- and my memory may be faulty...)
[Kept on RAND-AI: <GREINER.RLL>]
RLL - held the basic system
USERS - facts about each user
LISPFNS - some facts about some LISP functions
SLOTS - stored facts about each slot in starting RLL system
ALL of the above were needed for RLL to run.
---
HEURS - list of heuristics, which EURISKO could use
GENLINFO - overview of the world -- VERY sketchy
EURISKO - basic agenda based control scheme.
The above three were nice -- still very fragmentary.
---
SPILL - see "Building Expert System" book
RATALE - beginning of rationalization, I think???
[Kept on SCORE: <CSD.RLL>]
<<none of these were ever really used. Ask Doug about their actual contents>>
BIOLOGY - basic facts about animals, etc.
SETS - facts about sets, again coarse
NUMBER - facts about number theory
MATH - gen'l facts re: mathematics -- required by SETS and NUMBERS
---
RESOL - a resolution-theorem-prover, to be.
[Begun by Larry Hines, of UofTexas]
***---***
The naming scheme (as we discussed on the phone)
*.KB - file which only CORLL knew how to use
*.XKB - human readable version of a knowledge base
-- I think in the format unit1(p1 v1 ... pn vn)unit2(p1' v1' ... pn' vn')
where unit1, unit2 are the names of units, and p-i's are properties
(slots) and the v-i's are the values of these slots.
*.. - is the InterLisp file, associated with this KB
*.COM - ILisp compiled code, of course
-----
Third, the following people have each,
at one point or another, expressed interest in using this RLL system:
Caroll Johnston - JOHNSTON@SUMEX ?
Lee Erman - LErman@sri-kl
Michael Sims - MSIMS@RUTGERS
Gavin Hemphill - hemphill@NRL-AIC or G.HEMPHILL@SCORE
----
Good luck.
Any word from Bill Mann wrt copying that tape?
Let me know if there is anything else I can do.
Russ
∂16:39 13-May: de2smith@sumex/su CORLL Stuff
Dave -
Unfortunately the only remaining copy of some RLL code I
wrote WAYYYY back when is in the CORLL *.KB format.
(The human-readable XKB files mysteriously vanished!)
Did you archive the corll stuff on SUMEX?
How hard would it be to temporary resurrect CORLL,
just long enough to generate those usable files?
Thanks,
Russ
∂11:56 7-May: mann@isib,lenat@score/su RLL Code
Bill,
It looks like I will be needing the RLL code after all.
What is the best way for me to get access to the data on the Rand tape?
Is it very difficult/time-consuming to "retrieve" the files from that
tape, storing them on {ISIB}<Mancom.Rll>? Otherwise could you mail
me a copy of that tape? Or can you suggest some other method...?
Thanks much, both for your help here, and for your efforts in responding
to other recent RLL-related inquiries,
Russ
PS Have you heard from Steve of-late? Is there any chance he'll be returning
to your projects in a more active capacity?
∂07-May-83 1334 MANN@USC-ISIB Re: RLL Code
From: William C. Mann <MANN@USC-ISIB>
To: Russell Greiner <RDG@SU-AI>
cc: LENAT@SU-SCORE
Russ:
I can mail you the original tape from Rand. It's never been read here, but I
suspect that it's fine. (I think everything was put on the tape twice,
anyway. It was all done with DUMPER, which makes it easy to recreate the
directories. )
It seems unlikely now that Steve will be back, and without him we won't
continue our RLL experimentation. (From his description of his company, it
sounded like a pretty unstable situation; I'm surprised it's lasted this
long.)
We are going to start some kind of comparable experimentation at some point,
but I think we'll want to go through a phase which is not very demanding on
the KR first. When we do something more demanding on the KR, it probably will
be with a different base system. We've made very satisfying progress toward a
linguistically sophisticated text generation system. The present version has
a tight interface around it to shield it from arbitrary representational
variation, so we will be able to accommodate a variety of KR styles, even to
both framish and FOPC styles.
There is a certain risk in sending the only copy, but if you're willing, then
we will. As long as you never put a write ring in, I think the world will be
safe.
Let me know whether I should send it.
Cheers.
Bill
-------
∂22:04 10-May: MANN@ISIB, lenat@scor/su RLL Code, Revisited
Bill,
Mailing the only existing copy of RLL sounds rather risky.
I'd much prefer to have it dumped there, and FTPed here.
With your permission, I'll mail the following message to
OPERATOR@ISIB/subj Tape Mounting
Sir (or Madam) -
How does one arrange to have an archieval tape dumped?
Dr William Mann has the actual tape, whose contents I'd like to
deposit in the {ISIB}MANCOM.RLL directory.
Thank you,
Russ
[RDG@SAIL]
We here will pay any cost involved with this operation.
Also, I'll of course delete the files from that ISIB directory
after they have been safely transported.
Thanks,
Russ
∂11-May-83 0847 MANN@USC-ISIB Re: RLL Code, Revisited
In-Reply-To: Your message of 10 May 83 2204 PDT
Russ:
Whatever you do, don't offer money!!! We want to keep this process finite.
I'll be happy to help for free, but if you offer money, count me out.
Please send/phone me the MANCOM.RLL password; I've lost it. Then I can manage
the next few steps from here. It would be better not to send the message to
the OPERATOR.
We are, in fact, very short of disk on ISIB, chronically. If necessary I'll
time things to fall right after the weekend archiving.
Cheers.
Bill
-------
∂17:51 11-May: MANN@USC-ISIB/su Info, and Thanks
Bill -
Thanks much for agreeing to perform this bothersome task,
especially as it's a hassle which gains you essentially nothing
(besides my undying gratitude, of course).
You will, of course, let me know if there is anything I can do for
you here...
Anyway, the password for MANCOM.RLL is LENAT. If there is
a space crunch, the files I want most are the *.XKB ones.
Cheers,
Russ
∂12-May-83 1030 MANN@USC-ISIB Re: Info, and Thanks
Russ:
We're part way, having solvable software problems with the tapes.
I've created a new subdirectory, MANCOM.RLL.RAND, with the same password. So
far I just have a directory of the tape in it. You can look through the list
of files if you want. See file WM901.MTDIR.
I'll keep working on getting the actual files.
Cheers.
Bill
-------
∂13-May-83 1459 MANN@USC-ISIB Re: Info, and Thanks
In-Reply-To: Your message of 11 May 83 1751 PDT
Russ:
Software problems are overcome. But: I shouldn't put all of the files in 1
subdirectory. The tape has 3, and there are name conflicts. There is
<GREINER>, <GREINER.RLL> AND <GREINER.CORLL>.
If you want stuff from just one of those, I'll put it in the one I've created,
otherwise I'll create more.
Also, I requested that everything in <MANCOM.RLL> be archived, to regain some
space. I assume you already had whatever you wanted from there.
Cheers.
Bill
-------
∂16:57 13-May: MANN@USC-ISIB/su The best laid plans on Mycin Men ...
Bill-
Thanks for your diligent work! I read through that
list of files, and began assembling the list of the files
I think I'll need (or actually a superset of them),
Unfortunately, it seems that the files I need most,
notably RLL.XKB and SLOTS.XKB, are empty!
[Assuming that final column refers to file size...]
If so I may also need the CORLL stuff, with which to read in and transform
the corresponding *.KB files.
(I may be able to get a backed-up [back-uped?] version of CORLL from here.
We'll see.)
(Assuming I don't need that version of CORLL,)
the desired files are listed below, arranged by directories.
Note that essentially all are from <GREINER.RLL>.
(Is it easier to just dump the entire directory?)
Next: yes, there is nothing on MANCOM.RLL I now use.
(The files I recognized were all Steve's things.)
Finally, I should know about CORLL in a few days.
Would you rather wait until then before doing the unDUMPing,
to avoid the possibility of having to do two tape-mounts, ...?
Thanks again,
Russ
--------
PS:<GREINER>ARCHIVED.FILES.1 7-Jun-82 1504 2
PS:<GREINER.RLL>AUX..1 26-Mar-81 2030 6
PS:<GREINER.RLL>DELTA..1 11-Jun-82 1503 3
PS:<GREINER.RLL>FAULTSTUFF..5 14-Apr-82 1514 2
PS:<GREINER.RLL>RLL..47 27-Apr-82 1808 52
PS:<GREINER.RLL>RLL.KB.24 22-Dec-81 1744 102
PS:<GREINER.RLL>RLL.XKB.1 22-Oct-81 1812 0
PS:<GREINER.RLL>RLLPATCH..1 29-Apr-82 1733 2
PS:<GREINER.RLL>SLOTS.KB.26 22-Dec-81 1744 112
PS:<GREINER.RLL>SLOTS.XKB.1 22-Oct-81 1814 0
PS:<GREINER.RLL>SPECS..11 7-Nov-81 2203 4
PS:<GREINER.RLL>SPILL..1 26-Mar-81 2049 1
PS:<GREINER.RLL>SPILL.XKB.1 18-Oct-81 1136 15
PS:<GREINER.RLL>TODO..33 3-Dec-81 2305 2
PS:<GREINER.RLL>TODO.DONE.4 3-Dec-81 2305 1
PS:<GREINER.RLL>USERS.KB.25 22-Dec-81 1744 16
PS:<GREINER.RLL>USERS.XKB.1 22-Oct-81 1820 0
PS:<GREINER.RLL>UTIL..50 28-Apr-82 1907 85
PS:<GREINER.RLL>EURISKO..2 10-Nov-81 0005 9
PS:<GREINER.RLL>EURISKO.KB.1 2-Jun-81 1340 0
PS:<GREINER.RLL>EURISKO.XKB.1 22-Oct-81 1749 15
PS:<GREINER.RLL>FIELD..13 27-Apr-82 1808 11
PS:<GREINER.RLL>FIELD.XKB.2 25-Oct-81 1623 5
PS:<GREINER.RLL>GENLINFO..1 26-Mar-81 2041 1
PS:<GREINER.RLL>GENLINFO.XKB.1 18-Oct-81 1133 2
PS:<GREINER.RLL>HEURS..1 26-Mar-81 2042 4
PS:<GREINER.RLL>HEURS.XKB.1 18-Oct-81 1131 5
PS:<GREINER.RLL>LISPFNS.KB.23 22-Dec-81 1744 21
PS:<GREINER.RLL>LISPFNS.XKB.1 22-Oct-81 1811 0
PS:<GREINER.RLL>MU..1 13-Jun-81 1750 11
PS:<GREINER.RLL>PROP..2 15-Apr-82 1644 10
∂13-May-83 1720 MANN@USC-ISIB Re: The best laid plans on Mycin Men ...
Russ:
Thanks for the list. It turns out we have a visitor from >50 miles (i.e. an
expert) coming Monday and Tuesday. I'll try to get to it Wed.
Also, Steve had to fix some Corll stuff in order to get it to run here. The
latest stuff is in the <MJAMES> directory, some possibly archived.
Could it be that the zeroes in the Rand dump reflect dumping archived files?
I'll probably just dump the whole directory from tape to dsk.
Cheers.
Bill
-------
∂19-May-83 0951 MANN@USC-ISIB Re: The best laid plans on Mycin Men ...
Russ:
Wallah:: The stuff below is the whole <GREINER.RLL> directory
from the tape, all taken from the first copy on the tape. Nothing was
restored from the other directories, because you didn't want any of that
stuff.
I hope it's all satisfactory. I'll leave it in place for the remainder of May
for FTPeeing, and then will probably wipe it all out just to recover the
space.
I hope it all works. Let me know if I can help more. (On the CORLL stuff, if
you want to use that, I can get stuff from the tape, but you should at least
look at the changes Steve made in it afterward. Our core balances revealed
CORLL bugs.)
Cheers.
Bill
[USC-ISIB] 19-May-83 09:40:11
PS:<MANCOM.RLL.RAND>
PGS Write
AUX..1 6 26-Mar-81 20:30:41
.COM.1 7 26-Mar-81 20:30:47
BUGLET..1 10 20-Apr-82 16:55:19
DA5.CTL.1 1 13-Apr-82 16:10:52
DELTA..1 3 11-Jun-82 15:03:50
DIRECTORY.OWNER.1 1 26-Oct-81 17:21:40
EURISKO..1 9 26-Mar-81 20:40:38
.2 9 10-Nov-81 00:05:37
.COM.2 7 10-Nov-81 00:05:40
.XKB.1 15 22-Oct-81 17:49:19
FAULTSTUFF..5 2 14-Apr-82 15:14:22
FIELD..11 10 31-Oct-81 18:36:59
.12 11 15-Apr-82 16:37:18
.13 11 27-Apr-82 18:08:11
.COM.12 9 15-Apr-82 16:37:23
.13 9 27-Apr-82 18:08:15
.KB.5 10 31-Oct-81 18:14:34
.6 14 9-Nov-81 16:47:21
.XKB.2 5 25-Oct-81 16:23:35
GENLINFO..1 1 26-Mar-81 20:41:43
.COM.1 1 26-Mar-81 20:41:45
.XKB.1 2 18-Oct-81 11:33:45
GREINER-KB-CHANGES.APR20.3 1 27-Apr-82 18:47:12
.4 1 27-Apr-82 18:51:53
.5 1 27-Apr-82 18:58:01
.APR27.1 1 27-Apr-82 19:21:02
.APR28.1 1 28-Apr-82 18:58:58
.APR29.1 2 29-Apr-82 15:32:37
HEURS..1 4 26-Mar-81 20:42:11
.COM.1 4 26-Mar-81 20:42:18
.XKB.1 5 18-Oct-81 11:31:18
KB-CHANGES.MAR16.2 3 20-Apr-82 18:12:06
.3 3 22-Apr-82 14:20:01
LISPFNS.KB.21 23 9-Nov-81 17:03:39
.22 14 10-Nov-81 00:43:08
.23 21 22-Dec-81 17:44:49
MU..1 11 13-Jun-81 17:50:37
.COM.1 9 13-Jun-81 17:50:42
NEWADDITIONS..3 6 14-Apr-82 15:13:34
OLD..5 1 14-Nov-81 20:53:38
.KB.2 8 14-Nov-81 21:06:10
OLD-TO-ENTRY.FROM-RETR.1 10 23-Jul-81 23:51:15
PATCH.KB.1 6 10-Apr-82 14:32:28
.XKB.4 4 10-Apr-82 14:48:32
PENMAN..13 4 20-Apr-82 13:22:41
.COM.13 5 20-Apr-82 13:28:16
.XKB.2 8 20-Apr-82 13:23:02
PROP..1 10 14-Apr-82 19:40:19
.2 10 15-Apr-82 16:44:57
.COM.1 10 14-Apr-82 19:40:23
.2 10 15-Apr-82 16:45:01
PROTO-RLL.EXE.1 403 28-Apr-82 19:13:27
RATALE..6 5 26-Sep-81 14:14:00
.7 7 27-Sep-81 17:06:30
.COM.7 6 27-Sep-81 17:17:33
.KB.4 21 26-Sep-81 14:09:49
.5 59 27-Sep-81 17:13:30
RECORDKBCHANGE..19 10 14-Apr-82 15:17:41
.20 10 14-Apr-82 19:26:49
.COM.1 13 14-Apr-82 19:26:59
RLL..45 52 15-Apr-82 16:37:58
.46 52 15-Apr-82 16:56:21
.47 52 27-Apr-82 18:08:40
.COM.47 46 27-Apr-82 18:08:47
.KB.22 80 9-Nov-81 17:15:20
.23 80 10-Nov-81 00:47:07
.24 102 22-Dec-81 17:44:55
RLLPATCH..1 2 29-Apr-82 17:33:13
SLOTS.KB.24 136 9-Nov-81 17:14:56
.25 92 10-Nov-81 00:43:15
.26 112 22-Dec-81 17:44:50
SPECS..11 4 7-Nov-81 22:03:13
SPILL..1 1 26-Mar-81 20:49:38
.COM.1 1 26-Mar-81 20:49:42
.XKB.1 15 18-Oct-81 11:36:22
TODO..33 2 3-Dec-81 23:05:24
.DONE.4 1 3-Dec-81 23:05:34
TRACE.APR28.1 59 28-Apr-82 14:33:13
.APR29.1 19 29-Apr-82 14:24:01
.JUN11.1 7 11-Jun-82 14:59:31
TRACEA.APR20.1 7 20-Apr-82 14:26:26
.APR29.1 13 29-Apr-82 16:27:45
.JUN11.1 5 11-Jun-82 15:34:50
USERS.KB.21 9 9-Nov-81 17:15:14
.24 9 10-Nov-81 00:46:56
.25 16 22-Dec-81 17:44:52
UTIL..50 85 28-Apr-82 19:07:26
.51 85 11-Jun-82 15:43:30
.COM.50 86 28-Apr-82 19:09:55
.51 86 11-Jun-82 15:43:57
WM901.MTDIR.1 13 18-May-83 17:49:10
Total of 2212 pages in 91 files
-------
∂15:17 21-May: MANN@ISIB/su Other Clues?
Bill -
Thanks for retrieving the files. I tried to convert the
*.KB files found into usable *.XKB files, using the CORLL stuff on
the <MJAMES> directory -- sans success. Are there tricks which you
(or dr M James) know which can help me in this task? Is there
an actively used CORLL sysout lying around (my difficulties seem to
stem from my inability to load up those files)?
If not, I'll FTP those files here, retrieve the CORLL files
from this end, and try locally.
Thanks again for your (and MJAMES?) help.
Russ
∂22-May-83 1924 MANN@USC-ISIB Re: Other Clues?
Russ:
The only actively used CORLL sysout around is the highest version of
<MJAMES>NIGEL.EXE. It has the MJAMES CORLL installed and applied to a few of
our data types. It's runnable from your logins, or FTPeeable. There is a lot
of file integrity stuff in there. When it starts asking you file questions, I
think you can ↑D without screwing things up too much. Because of the file
stuff, it will probably run better here.
Hope that does all you want. Another possibility would be a function by
function comparison of ours with the previous one, ala COMPAREDEF. Beyond
that, clearly a last resort, is to ask Steve.
Cheers.
Bill
-------
∂13:04 23-May: mann@isib/su Thwarted, temporarily
Thanks for pointing me to NIGEL -- it did work perfectly for RLL.KB.
When I started to convert SLOTS.KB I found the grim reaper/archiver
had beat me to it. Once these files are RETRIEVEd I should be able
to convert them, and send them to the safety of SUMEX.
Thanks again for your assistance,
Russ
∂23-May-83 1325 MANN@USC-ISIB Re: Thwarted, temporarily
To: Russell Greiner <RDG@SU-AI>
In-Reply-To: Your message of 23 May 83 1304 PDT
Russ:
Strange. Perhaps the files got archived because they had very old dates still
attached. Anyway, if the RETRIEVE actions take longer than .5 hours, let me
know and I'll put some pressure on.
Cheers.
Bill
-------
∂11:58 26-May: mann@isib/su Hallelujah!
Bill -
I seem to have suceeded in reading and xwriting the missing XKBs;
and have transfered the files which (I think) I'll need over to Sumex.
Finally! I then deleted all the <MANCOM.RLL.RAND> files...
would it have been wiser to
DELETE <file>,
contents-only
(or whatever) - to leave those files offline? That is, if I end up
needing some obscure file, will ISIB's retrieval mechanism be able to
find it? Also, will those DUMP tapes remain in perpetuity;
or be overwritten eventually?
I too hope this will be the last in a too-long series of
interruptions. Thanks for your on-going help and support,
Russ
∂26-May-83 1344 MANN@USC-ISIB Re: Hallelujah!
Russ:
I looked. The way you deleted them, they are all gone except for the KB AND
XKB files that you archived. Those are accessible by the RETRIEVE command.
For the rest, if we have to get them off of the tape again, we can.
Hope it all works.
Bill
-------
∂27-May-83 1252 MANN@USC-ISIB Re: Hallelujah!
Russ:
p.s.: I'll probably hold onto this dump tape for a year or two. If we can
see now that something is going to be needed, we should get it off and into
archive now.
Bill
-------
∂18 May 1983 0532-PDT RTAYLOR at USC-ECL RLL
Return-Path: RTAYLOR%USC-ECL.ARPA@SU-SCORE.ARPA
Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 18 May 83 08:04:16-PDT
Received: from USC-ECL by SU-SCORE.ARPA with TCP; Wed 18 May 83 05:36:20-PDT
Subject: [RTAYLOR at USC-ECL: RLL]
Subject: [Doug Lenat <LENAT@SU-SCORE.ARPA>: Re: RLL]
Subject: [RTAYLOR at USC-ECL: Re: RLL]
Subject: [Doug Lenat <LENAT@SU-SCORE.ARPA>: Re: RLL]
From: RTAYLOR at USC-ECL
To: greiner at SCORE
Message-ID: <[USC-ECL]18-May-83 05:32:36.RTAYLOR>
Hi Russ,
I think the forwarded msgs are self-explanatory. If not, or you need
more info, please let me know. Thanks.
Roz
Begin forwarded messages
Mail-From: USC-ECL
Received-Date: 17-May-83 0610-PDT
Date: 17 May 1983 0610-PDT
From: RTAYLOR at USC-ECL
To: csd.lenat at SU-SCORE
Subject: RLL
Bcc: RTAYLOR at USC-ECL
Message-ID: <[USC-ECL]17-May-83 06:10:27.RTAYLOR>
Sender: RTAYLOR at USC-ECL
Hi!
I introduced myself in Feb as the newest member of Nort Fowler's group
at RADC. I am responsible for expert systems and expert systems tools.
According to the list Rich Evans compiled last year, you are the point of
contact for RLL. If this is no longer true, please let me know who I
should contact.
I need to know what the current version of RLL is (if more than one),
which version is available for RADC to acquire, what paperwork is needed to
acquire it, how much it costs, and anything else you can think of to help
me. Thanks.
Roz
--------------------
Date: Tue 17 May 83 09:21:55-PDT
From: Doug Lenat <LENAT@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
To: RTAYLOR@USC-ECL.ARPA
Subject: Re: RLL
In-Reply-To: Message from "RTAYLOR at USC-ECL" of Tue 17 May 83 06:10:00-PDT
Return-path: <LENAT@SU-SCORE>
Received: from SU-SCORE by USC-ECL; Tue 17 May 83 09:19:28-PDT
Russ Greiner (greiner@score) has a version up and running I believe.
We do not generally disseminate our ongoing research items, though.
What exactly do you wish to do with it?
Regards
Doug
-------
--------------------
Mail-From: USC-ECL
Received-Date: 17-May-83 1201-PDT
Date: 17 May 1983 1201-PDT
From: RTAYLOR at USC-ECL
To: LENAT at SU-SCORE
Subject: Re: RLL
Bcc: rtaylor at USC-ECL
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue 17 May 83 09:21:55-PDT
Message-ID: <[USC-ECL]17-May-83 12:01:08.RTAYLOR>
Sender: RTAYLOR at USC-ECL
Hi,
The official objective is: "To evaluate existing knowledge base tools
which have been used to build expert systems. This evaluation will
determine the strengths and weaknesses of these various tools; such as
their ease of use, their knowlege base management techniques, and their
knowledge base maintenance techniques." Typical "government-ese"!
Basically, as an "in-house" effort, I am supposed to acquire (for use as
part of the in-house effort) various expert systems and tools for our use
in accomplishing these official objective.
I am supposed to get "up to speed" on each, then bring the rest of the
group up to speed, and then we all are supposed to work at the evaluation
"under my guidance" (so to speak). Nort (Fowler) suggested I start the in
house effort by contacting all of the people on Rich Evans' list. The
official objective is quoted from the one page in house report I prepared
for the commander. Any other questions I can try to answer? Did I provide
the info you needed?
Roz
--------------------
Date: Tue 17 May 83 17:44:27-PDT
From: Doug Lenat <LENAT@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
To: RTAYLOR@USC-ECL.ARPA
Subject: Re: RLL
In-Reply-To: Message from "RTAYLOR at USC-ECL" of Tue 17 May 83 12:01:00-PDT
Return-path: <LENAT@SU-SCORE>
Received: from SU-SCORE by USC-ECL; Tue 17 May 83 17:42:04-PDT
Yes, thanks, Roz. Let me know if there's any trouble getting the
buggy but runnable old RLL from Russ (GREINER@SCORE).
Doug
-------
--------------------
End forwarded messages
-------
∂16:17 1-Jun: kwh@mit-mc, RTAYLOR@USC-ECL, wes, LErman@sri-kl, MSIMS@RUTGERS,
hemphill@NRL-AIC, G.HEMPHILL@SCORE, agre@mit-mc/cc, csd.lenat@score/su RLL code
I was able to get my ancient RLL code and KBs from ISIB.
Let me know if you are interested in perusing them.
They are all in human-readable form; and the source code is interlisp.
I haven't check whether this stuff is consistent, or if it will work...
Russ
∂01-Jun-83 1859 LERMAN@SRI-KL.ARPA Re: RLL code
Russ,
Yes, I would be interested enough to invest a couple of hours, to see
if more would be worthwhile.
thanks,
Lee
-------
∂02-Jun-83 0534 dent@nrl-aic rll
Message-Id: <83/06/02 0824.583@NRL-AIC>
Dear Russ,
Yes I am interested in perusing your RLL stuff. What machine
and directory is it on? Can I FTP it elsewhere?
Thanks,
Ann
∂02-Jun-83 0652 RTAYLOR@USC-ECL Re: RLL code
Russ,
Of course I'm interested in perusing the stuff of RLL. Tell me how!?!
Roz
∂07-Jun-83 0948 RTAYLOR@USC-ECL Re: RLL code
Russ,
Thanks for the info on RLL. I'm going on leave (effective) early
Thursday, and am "fire-fighting" right now. I may not get a chance to try
FTP-ing the files until my return.
Thanks again.
Roz
∂14-Jun-83 1241 @MIT-MC:KWH%MIT-OZ%MIT-MC@SU-DSN RLL Sources
To: rdg@su-ai
Cc: KwH%MIT-OZ%MIT-MC@SU-DSN
I just looked at my mail after a long hiatus.. I would definitely be
interested in getting copies of said RLL code-- What is its
run-status now? Is anyone anywhere trying to get it running?
What is the preferred way to get copies of it here? Over the net?
If so, what formalities and mechanisms need to be involved?
Thanks,
Ken
∂12:56 6-Jun: LERMAN@SRI-KL, dent@nrl-aic, RTAYLOR@USC-ECL, WES@sail,lenat@score/cc
∂12:58 14-Jun: "KwH%MIT-OZ"@MIT-MC/su Re: RLL code
∂13:12 21-Jun: MSIMS@RUTGERS/su Re: RLL code
The RLL files are currently on the {SUMEX}<GREINER.RLL> directory.
The most relevant are the *.XKB files -- in particular,
RLL.XKB, SLOTS.XKB, LISPFNS.XKB and USERS.XKB.
After that in importances are the various source code *.. files --
especially UTIL.. and RLL..
Then the other *.XKB files, and finally almost anything else.
Anyone with access to Sumex is invited to grab whatever files you like
from that directory.
I think Sumex has a guest account which can be used.
Let me know if that is not the case, or if the files are too protected,
or whatever.
Finally, realize that one needs a system like CORLL to
(have any chance of) actually running anything -- which is still buried.
That is, the best (?only?) real use of these files is a general perusal.
Russ
∂16-Jun-83 0528 MSIMS@RUTGERS.ARPA Re: RLL code
To: RDG@SU-AI.ARPA
cc: msims@RUTGERS.ARPA, amarel@RUTGERS.ARPA
In-Reply-To: Message from "Russell Greiner <RDG@SU-AI>" of 1 Jun 83 19:17:00 EDT
Russ,
Thanks for all the info you have been funneling my way. I did get
both the series of MRS papers, and the RLL note. The best decision
for my development seems to be pursuing my system development in
MRS. The advice of several people has been that the level of current
support should tip the scale toward MRS. I do have some interest
in your 'ancient RLL code' as I am curious about how some of the mechanisms
work.
Regards,
Michael
-------
∂13:16 21-Jun: MSIMS@Rutgers, amarel@sumex/cc/su MRS Access
Micheal:
The easiest way is to get access to the MRS code,
is to log into SUMEX, and copy all the files in the <MRS.MAC.CUR>
directory onto your machine. (The MRS.EXE is the "sysout" of the
MacLisp version.) Note the same source code can be used in FranzLisp
as well, and in the Symbolics Lisp Machines.
(This is assuming you have already received and signed the
MRS NonDisclosure Agreement. While this is just a formality, it is one
on which both Stanford and the HPP insist.)
Russ
∂16-Sep-83 1459 MSIMS@RUTGERS.ARPA Do you know how big MRS is?
To: RDG@SU-AI.ARPA
cc: MSIMS@RUTGERS.ARPA
Russ,
I sorry that we didn't get more time to talk this summer, and
it was nice to get a chance to meet you.
I've been told that the NonDisclosure agreement have finally
passed back and forth and that all is appropriate. We were looking
for a good place to put the MRS system, and it would be useful
to find out how large the system on <MRS.MAC.CUR> is. Could you check
that for me?
I have also tried to look at some of the rll code in RLL.XKB, SLOTS.XKB,
LISPFNS.XKB AND USERS.XKB, but apparently the protection codes were
inappropriate.
Thanks for all the help. I hope your dissertation is going well.
-Michael
-------
∂14:36 19-Sep: MSIMS@RUTGERS/su MRS-size and RLL-contents
Michael,
First, the MRS directory is about 500 TOPS20 pages.
The *.LSP files are about 180 pages, MRS.EXE, about 160.
Second, I had archived those RLL files; I'll retrieve them
now. Let me know when you're done perusing them, so I can delete
those copies. [They do take quite a bit of space.]
Russ
∂12:15 20-Sept: MSIMS@RUTGERS/su Files restored to disk
Date: 19 Sep 1983 2051-PDT
From: OPERATOR
To: GREINER
SUBJECT: Files restored to disk
The following files have been restored on SUMEX-AIM:
PS:<GREINER.RLL>EURISKO.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:14
PS:<GREINER.RLL>FIELD.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:16
PS:<GREINER.RLL>GENLINFO.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:17
PS:<GREINER.RLL>HEURS.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:24
PS:<GREINER.RLL>LISPFNS.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:26
PS:<GREINER.RLL>PATCH.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:28
PS:<GREINER.RLL>PENMAN.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:30
PS:<GREINER.RLL>RATALE.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:33
PS:<GREINER.RLL>RLL.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:36
PS:<GREINER.RLL>SLOTS.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:39
PS:<GREINER.RLL>SPILL.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:40
PS:<GREINER.RLL>USERS.XKB.1 19-Sep-83 20:48:45
========
-------
∂17-Oct-83 1157 MSIMS@RUTGERS.ARPA Re: Files restored to disk
Russ,
Thanks for the look at RLL. Sorry for taking so long in
letting you know it was okay to delete them again.
-Michael
-------
24-June-83
Dr Dancer,
This package include the (outdated) RLL documents you requested,
augmented with miscellaneous MRS documents, for reasons which will
be clear later. Providing the actual RLL code is a bit more difficult.
Some background: About a year ago, in the interest of graduating, my time
and energy shifted from playing RLL czar to working on a thesis.
Others, including Dr William Mann and some of his coworkers at USC/ISI,
continued to develop and augment RLL. For that reason the most up-to-date
version had been at USC-ISIB, on the <MANCOM.RLL> directory.
Unfortunately there is no guarantee that that system is working;
the ISI liason/principle-updater left the project rather abruptly
(for personal reasons) in the middle of a bundle of alterations.
While the "abondoned" code has been retrieved from its earlier archived status,
and is available, it has been untested.
Let me know if you want access to that questionable code.
I am personally coding in MRS these days, and eventually hope to bring up
(all and only) RLL's good features within that system. As the documents
show, the two systems are fairly similar in theme and capabilities; the
major differences (wrt me) lying in the facts that someone else is
responsible for its adminstrative and technical support, promotion, etc.;
and that MRS, having a larger "constituency", will probably be maintained
(if not for perpetuity at least for a while).
However, if all of this doesn't dissuade you, do give me a call at (415)
497-1863, and I'll try to help ("... to bring up an implementation", not
"... to further discourage you").
Russell Greiner
Margaret Jacks Hall
Computer Science Department
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-2085
∂2 Jul 83 14:37:33-PDT Carroll Johnson <CJOHNSON@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA> RLL
To: Greiner@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
cc: CJohnson@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA
Several years ago we were discussing
the possibility of trying RLL on some of our ORNL (Oak Ridge National
Laboratory) problems. We again have a problem which seems
to require something with the generality of RLL. What is the status
of the system now and would it be possible to use it on Sumex?
Best wishes,
Carroll
-------
∂12:34 6-Jul: CJOHNSON@SUMEX-AIM/su Re: RLL code
Carroll,
It's not clear just what RLL's state *really* is these days.
About a year ago, in the interest of graduating, my time
and energy shifted from RLL czar-ing to thesis-ing.
I am personally coding in MRS these days, and eventually hope to bring up
(all and only) RLL's good features within that system.
These two systems are fairly similar in theme and capabilities,
(as both grew out of the same meetings, several years ago;)
the major differences (wrt me) lying in the facts that someone else is
responsible for its adminstrative and technical support, promotion, etc.;
and that MRS, having a larger "constituency", will probably be maintained
(if not for perpetuity at least for a while).
Let me know if you would like me to send you the set of MRS documents.
Returning to RLL, proper, a form of its code does still exist, sorta.
Dr William Mann and some of his coworkers at USC/ISI continued to develop
and augment RLL even after I left. For that reason the most up-to-date
version had been at USC-ISIB, on the <MANCOM.RLL> directory.
Unfortunately there is no guarantee that that system is working;
the ISI liason/principle-updater left the project rather abruptly
(for personal reasons) in the middle of a bundle of alterations.
Anyay, I recently retrieved that ancient RLL code and KBs from ISIB,
and moved them over to SUMEX.
They are currently on the {SUMEX}<GREINER.RLL> directory.
The most relevant are the *.XKB files -- in particular,
RLL.XKB, SLOTS.XKB, LISPFNS.XKB and USERS.XKB.
After that in importances are the various source code *.. files --
especially UTIL.. and RLL..
Then the other *.XKB files, and finally almost anything else.
Anyone with access to Sumex is invited to grab whatever files you like
from that directory.
I think Sumex has a guest account which can be used.
Let me know if that is not the case, or if the files are too protected,
or whatever.
Finally, realize that one needs a system like CORLL to
(have any chance of) actually running anything -- which is still buried.
That is, the best (?only?) real use of these files is a general perusal.
Russ
∂08-Jul-83 0733 CJOHNSON@SUMEX-AIM Re: RLL code
To: RDG@SAIL
cc: CJohnson@SUMEX-AIM
Russ,
I am delighted to hear from you again and very much appreciate your
retrieving the RLL files from USC/ISI to SUMEX. I also
appreciate your bringing the MRS project to my attention. I have not
keep up with the averall Stanford activities very well during the
past few years. Allan Terry's CRYSALIS project and Todd Wipke's SECS
project have been my main concerns on sumex recently; However, I
maintain a great admiration for the generality and potential of RLL
from the expert systems conference where the spills problem was
addressed. At that time I was involved in a general interdisciplinary
project evaluating applied AI for Oak Ridge problems. My interest
in AI started during the year I spent at HPP in 1975-76 helping
get the CRYSALIS project started. I recently spent another year
sabbatical with the Navy AI center in Washington DC
getting a feel for applied AI in the military world, returning
to Oak Ridge 1 1/2 years ago. Since then I have been concerned
with AI applications in chemistry, particularly chemical reactions
and structure-activity relationships.
We have a collaborative project on sumex with Wipke in which
a system for forward chemical reactions called FSECS was developed. That
system is now running on a DEC-10 here at ORNL - which brings me to
the current problem. I want to develop a new system for chemical
reaction reasoning using contemporary AI methods. The Dendral
systems do not have direct bearing on the general chemical reactivity
problem. I have a couple of PhD organic chemists working with
me here at ORNL, one full time, and we are trying to derive what
I hope will be the next generation system for chemical reactions.
We ar again collaborating with Todd Wipke on this but of course
each has his own ideas on the specifics. I am leaning toward
a system that might incorporate many of the RLL features. Anyway,
that is the context for my revived interest in RLL. During my
year at the Navy AI center, I became convinced that streight
forward production rule systems can not handle problems of this
sort adequately and that frame-based systems are essential here.
I printed out a number of the files from <greiner.rll> on SUMEX
and must admit that things are not crystal clear so far. I have
looked at the code files but will now start on the .xkb files which,
as you mentioned, are probably most relevant. I must again admit
my ignorance and ask what CORLL is and where it is located.
The MRS system also looks quite interesting, particularly
since it is well documented and will run under FRANZLISP - at
least that is what I infered from a look at the <MRS> directory
of files. Maybe I should start trying to use MRS to see if its
multiple representation feature will fit the problem. I would appreciate
a set of the MRS documents you mentioned. My address is
Carroll K. Johnson
4500N MS C-18
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Oak Ridge TN 37830
in case the documents are in hard copy form.
Any additional guidance you can give me on RLL and MRS will be
greatly appreciated.
I assume from your address that you are at the AI laboratory.
What are your main activities these days?
Take care,
Carroll
-------
∂16:33 8-Jul: CJOHNSON@SUMEX-AIM/su CORLL
Carroll,
The MRS and CORLL documents are now en route (snail mail).
I'm not sure if there are any remaining CORLL systems around.
Certainly not here at Stanford.
(Dave Smith, DE2SMITH@SUMEX, might be able to tell you how to retrieve them,
though.) The excerpt below, from a message from Bill Mann
(<MANN>@ISIB), implies there may be a version at ISIB:
Also, Steve had to fix some Corll stuff in order to get it to run here. The
latest stuff is in the <MJAMES> directory, some possibly archived.
So maybe this MJAMES@ISIB could help, or perhaps Bill Mann.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Russ
∂15:41 11-Jul-83: paulson@sumex, grinberg@diablo, genesereth@sumex/su Potential MRS User
Chuck, Milt, Mike -
Can any of you help here? (I told him about MRS; and mailed off the
miscellaneous MRS stuff last week.) Does the MRS demo work?
Russ
-----
∂11-Jul-83 1318 CJOHNSON@SUMEX-AIM MRS trial spin
To: RDG@SAIL
cc: CJOHNSON@SUMEX-AIM
Russ,
Thanks for forwarding the material on MRS and CORLL. I am looking
forward to receiving it and am hoping that you also included some material
on your RLL in the package.
The MRS system seems very very nice and streightforward based on
my examination of the files in <MRS> on SUMEX. I read the manual in that
directory and concluded that I might be able to run the simplest demo
given therein by typing:
@<MRS.MAC.NEW>MRS
*
(load "mrs.demo")
from my directory CJohnson on SUMEX. However, MRS seems to be
missing a bunch of meta assertions when I try that and does not do
the example operations correctly. I suspect the documentation in the mail
will show me the error in my ways but I am impatient
to try using MRS on some prototype chemical reasoning problems and would appreciate
some hints on the correct way to access the system.
Thanks
Carroll
-------
∂11-Jul-83 1554 grinberg@Diablo Re: Potential MRS User
To: Russell Greiner <RDG@SU-AI>
Message-Id: <83/07/11 1557.983@Diablo>
I would assume that the demo was never updated to the new form and hence
does not work. Have no idea when I can get to this myself.
milt
∂Thu 14 Jul 83 15:51:35-PDT <GRINBERG@SUMEX-AIM> [mailer-daemon@Diablo: Unable to deliver mail]
To: greiner@Diablo
Sorry, mistyped your name
The proper method for running mrs demo's is to use the function demo which
takes an arbitrary number of demo file arguments. If none is provided then a
default demo file is run. Currently there are three "demo"able files named:
d74.demo
kinship.demo
demons.demo
You can run the last two demo files by doing a
(demo '|kinship.demo| '|demons.demo|)
[Known bug to be fixed in next version]
Typing a carriage return causes two statements to be processed. If you want
to see one statement at a time then use line feed instead of carriage return.
This will be fixed in the next release.
milt
-------
∂11:44 7-Jun: clayton@sumex/su CORLL & RLL
Jan,
First, from a message from Bill Mann (<MANN>@ISI), wrt CORLL:
Also, Steve had to fix some Corll stuff in order to get it to run here. The
latest stuff is in the <MJAMES> directory, some possibly archived.
So maybe this MJAMES@ISI could help, or perhaps Bill Mann.
Second, below is my pseudo-form letter:
******
It's not clear just what RLL's state *really* is these days.
About a year ago, in the interest of graduating, my time
and energy shifted from RLL czar-ing to thesis-ing.
I am personally coding in MRS these days, and eventually hope to bring up
(all and only) RLL's good features within that system.
These two systems are fairly similar in theme and capabilities,
(as both grew out of the same meetings, several years ago;)
the major differences (wrt me) lying in the facts that someone else is
responsible for its adminstrative and technical support, promotion, etc.;
and that MRS, having a larger "constituency", will probably be maintained
(if not for perpetuity at least for a while).
Let me know if you would like me to send you the set of MRS documents.
Returning to RLL, proper, a form of its code does still exist, sorta.
Dr William Mann and some of his coworkers at USC/ISI continued to develop
and augment RLL even after I left. For that reason the most up-to-date
version had been at USC-ISIB, on the <MANCOM.RLL> directory.
Unfortunately there is no guarantee that that system is working;
the ISI liason/principle-updater left the project rather abruptly
(for personal reasons) in the middle of a bundle of alterations.
Anyay, I recently retrieved that ancient RLL code and KBs from ISIB,
and moved them over to SUMEX.
They are currently on the {SUMEX}<GREINER.RLL> directory.
The most relevant are the *.XKB files -- in particular,
RLL.XKB, SLOTS.XKB, LISPFNS.XKB and USERS.XKB.
After that in importances are the various source code *.. files --
especially UTIL.. and RLL..
Then the other *.XKB files, and finally almost anything else.
Anyone with access to Sumex is invited to grab whatever files you like
from that directory.
I think Sumex has a guest account which can be used.
Let me know if that is not the case, or if the files are too protected,
or whatever.
Finally, realize that one needs a system like CORLL to
(have any chance of) actually running anything -- which is still buried.
That is, the best (?only?) real use of these files is a general perusal.
Russ
******
∂14 Jul 83 23:34:26 PDT norvig%UCBKIM@Berkeley (Peter Norvig) RLL
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To: greiner@su-score, lenat@su-score
I was wondering about the availability of RLL. Is there a version available
for ftp? Is there other documentation? Is someone else responsible for
distrubution?
Thank you,
Peter Norvig
-------
∂17:24 20-Jul: "norvig%UCBKIM"@Berkeley, lenat@su-score/cc/su Re: RLL code
Dr Norvig,
It's not clear just what RLL's state *really* is these days.
About a year ago, in the interest of graduating, my time
and energy shifted from RLL czar-ing to thesis-ing.
I am personally coding in MRS these days, and eventually hope to bring up
(all and only) RLL's good features within that system.
These two systems are fairly similar in theme and capabilities,
(as both grew out of the same meetings, several years ago;)
the major differences (wrt me) lying in the facts that someone else is
responsible for its adminstrative and technical support, promotion, etc.;
and that MRS, having a larger "constituency", will probably be maintained
(if not for perpetuity at least for a while).
Let me know if you would like me to send you the set of MRS documents.
Returning to RLL, proper, a form of its code does still exist, sorta.
Dr William Mann and some of his coworkers at USC/ISI continued to develop
and augment RLL even after I left. For that reason the most up-to-date
version had been at USC-ISIB, on the <MANCOM.RLL> directory.
Unfortunately there is no guarantee that that system is working;
the ISI liason/principle-updater left the project rather abruptly
(for personal reasons) in the middle of a bundle of alterations.
Anyay, I recently retrieved that ancient RLL code and KBs from ISIB, and
moved them over to SUMEX. They are currently on the {SUMEX}<GREINER.RLL>
directory. The most relevant are the *.XKB files -- in particular,
RLL.XKB, SLOTS.XKB, LISPFNS.XKB and USERS.XKB. After that in importances
are the various source code *.. files -- especially UTIL.. and RLL.. Then
the other *.XKB files, and finally almost anything else.
Anyone with access to Sumex is invited to grab whatever files you like
from that directory. I think Sumex has a guest account which can be used.
Let me know if that is not the case, or if the files are too protected, or
whatever.
Finally, realize that one needs a system like CORLL to (have any chance
of) actually running anything -- which is still buried. That is, the best
(?only?) real use of these files is a general perusal.
Russ
∂20-Jul-83 2040 norvig%UCBKIM@Berkeley Re: RLL code
To: RDG@SU-AI
Thanks for the message. Please send me the MRS documentation, and I'll have
a look through the files on SUMEX. I don't anticipate any problem getting
on there. My snail mail address is UC Berkeley CS Dept, 94720. I
anticipate ending up writing my own system, but any good ideas I can steal
from RLL or MRS will help. If you are at IJCAI or AAAI, perhaps I can ask
you some more about it. Thanks again,
Peter (not a `Dr.' yet) Norvig
Mr. Peter Norvig
Computer Science Dept
UC Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720
∂15 Sep 83 1153 EDT (Thursday) Alan.Sobel@CMU-CS-A RLL Documentation
To: greiner@su-score
Message-Id: <15Sep83.115304.AS80@CMU-CS-A>
I would appreciate it if you would send pointers to any further documentation
for RLL beyond the RLL article that appeared in AAAI (articles, manuals, etc).
Thanks very much.
Alan Sobel
-------
∂13:54 15-Sep: Alan.Sobel@CMU-CS-A, lenat@sumex/cc/su re: RLL Documentation
Dr. Sobel -
There are two RLL tech-reports, which I'd be glad to "snail mail"
to you, given your address. The rest of this message explains RLL's
current status:
It's not clear just what RLL's state *really* is these days.
About a year ago, in the interest of graduating, my time and energy
shifted from RLL czar-ing to thesis-ing. I am personally coding in MRS
these days, and eventually hope to bring up (all and only) RLL's good
features within that system. These two systems are fairly similar in
theme and capabilities, (as both grew out of the same meetings, several
years ago;) the major differences (wrt me) lying in the facts that someone
else is responsible for its adminstrative and technical support,
promotion, etc.; and that MRS, having a larger "constituency", will
probably be maintained (if not for perpetuity at least for a while). Let
me know if you would like me to also send you the set of MRS documents.
Returning to RLL, proper, several versions of its code are still
around, in various states. Prof Lenat is using a closely related rll
system in his Eurisko work; and the Symbolics people have brought up a
"Common Lisp RLL" (CLRLL,) which they demo-ed in the recent IJCAI and AAAI
conferences.
I left my actual code with Dr William Mann and some of his
coworkers at USC/ISI, who continued to develop and augment RLL for quite a
while. For that reason the most up-to-date version of that source had
been at USC-ISIB, on the <MANCOM.RLL> directory. Unfortunately there is
no guarantee that that system is working; the ISI liason/principle-updater
left the project rather abruptly (for personal reasons) in the middle of a
bundle of alterations.
Anyay, I recently retrieved that ancient RLL code and KBs from
ISIB, and moved them over to SUMEX. They have been archived, fixed to the
{SUMEX}<GREINER.RLL> directory. The most relevant are the *.XKB files --
in particular, RLL.XKB, SLOTS.XKB, LISPFNS.XKB and USERS.XKB. After that
in importances are the various source code *.. files -- especially UTIL..
and RLL.. Then the other *.XKB files, and finally almost anything else.
Anyone with access to Sumex is invited to grab whatever files you
like from that directory. I think Sumex has a guest account which can be
used. Let me know if that is not the case, or if the files are too
protected, or whatever.
Finally, realize that one needs a system like CORLL to (have any
chance of) actually running anything -- which is still buried. That is,
the best (?only?) real use of these files is a general perusal.
Russ
∂15 Sep 83 2057 EDT Alan.Sobel@CMU-CS-A RE: RLL Documentation
To: Greiner@SU-SCORE
Message-Id: <15Sep83.205759.AS80@CMU-CS-A>
Thanks for your reply. I'd appreciate it if you would send both the RLL and
MRS materials. My address is
Alan Sobel [unfortunately not Dr.]
Computer Science Department
Carnegie-Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
Alan
-------
∂Mailed 16-Sep-83
∂05-Oct-83 1504 Alan.Sobel@CMU-CS-A RE: RLL/MRS Documentation
To: GREINER@SU-AI
Message-Id: <05Oct83.175906.AS80@CMU-CS-A>
Russ,
I haven't received that RLL/MRS documentation. Has the US Mail
struck again?
Alan
∂17:10 5-Oct: Alan.Sobel@CMU-CS-A/su Hmmm,...
Alan,
My records showed I mailed them off back on 16-Sep-83. Oh well,
I've asked the secretary to mail off another set. They'll be a slight
delay, as the RLL stuff is currently out of print.
Russ
∂06-Oct-83 0423 Alan.Sobel@CMU-CS-A RE: Hmmm,...
To: Greiner@SU-AI
Message-Id: <06Oct83.072316.AS80@CMU-CS-A>
Russ,
Thanks. Sorry for the hassle.
Alan
∂17-Oct-83 1104 Alan.Sobel@CMU-CS-A RE: RLL Documentation
To: Greiner@SU-AI
Message-Id: <17Oct83.140331.AS80@CMU-CS-A>
Got it in the mail today (the Oct 13 packet). Thanks very much and sorry
again for the hassle.
Alan
∂11:16 17-Oct: Alan.Sobel@CMU-CS-A/su Sigh; Done
No problem. I assume the RLL stuff (for what it's worth) will follow
as soon as they are reprinted.
Russ
∂15:45 20-Sept: bhayes-roth@sumex, lenat@sumex/cc/su CORLL System
Barbara,
Doug mentioned that you wanted to get a hold of the CORLL system.
Unfortunately the best I can do is point you to its author,
Dave Smith (DE2SMITH@SUMEX),
and forward a message from Bill Mann (MANN@ISI), wrt CORLL:
Also, Steve had to fix some Corll stuff in order to get it to run here. The
latest stuff is in the <MJAMES> directory, some possibly archived.
So maybe this MJAMES@ISI could help, or perhaps Bill Mann.
I actually used that <MJAMES>CORLL.EXE sysout a little while ago,
and it did seem to work (for a single, simple task).
Let me know if I can be of any (?more?) help.
Good luck,
Russ
∂13-Jan-84 1345 ssc-vax!dlk@uw-beaver RLL
Received: from UW-BEAVER by SU-AI with TCP/SMTP; 13 Jan 84 13:45:00 PST
From: Donald Kaiser <dlk@ssc-vax>
To: uw-beaver!rdg@sail
Message-Id: <84/01/13 1320.350@ssc-vax>
Russ,
I work in the AI group for Boeing Aerospace Co. in Seattle. I
would like to obtain documentation and access to your RLL (Representation
Language Language). Can you tell me how i go about doing this? Thank
you very much.
Don Kaiser
...uw-beaver!ssc-vax!dlk
∂16:20 25-Jan: "ssc-vax!dlk"@uw-beaver/su RLL
Dr Don Kaiser,
You should soon receive the (outdated) RLL documents you requested,
augmented with miscellaneous MRS documents, for reasons which will
be clear later. Providing the actual RLL code is a bit more difficult.
Some background: About two years ago, in the interest of graduating, my time
and energy shifted from playing RLL czar to working on a thesis.
Others, including Dr William Mann and some of his coworkers at USC/ISI,
continued to develop and augment RLL. For that reason the most up-to-date
version had been at USC-ISIB, on the <MANCOM.RLL> directory.
Unfortunately there is no guarantee that that system is working;
the ISI liason/principle-updater left the project rather abruptly
(for personal reasons) in the middle of a bundle of alterations.
While the "abondoned" code has been retrieved from its earlier archived status,
and is available, it has been untested.
Let me know if you want access to that questionable code.
I am personally coding in MRS these days, and eventually hope to bring up
(all and only) RLL's good features within that system. As the documents
show, the two systems are fairly similar in theme and capabilities; the
major differences (wrt me) lying in the facts that someone else is
responsible for its adminstrative and technical support, promotion, etc.;
and that MRS, having a larger "constituency", will probably be maintained
(if not for perpetuity at least for a while).
However, if all of this doesn't dissuade you, do give me a call at (415)
497-1863, and I'll try to help ("... to bring up an implementation", not
"... to further discourage you").
Russell Greiner
Margaret Jacks Hall
Computer Science Department
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-2085
∂27-Jan-84 0012 ssc-vax!dlk@uw-beaver Re: RLL
From: Donald Kaiser <dlk@ssc-vax>
To: uw-beaver!RDG@SU-AI
Message-Id: <84/01/26 1417.166@ssc-vax>
Russ,
Thank you very much for replying. Our group is pretty enthusiastic
about getting RLL, accompanying documents, etc. Harlyn Baker, a friend
of yours from Stanford, is visiting our AI center and kindly
volunteered to be our courier (tapeboy, or whatever). He works one
week here at Boeing and one week at Stanford. He will be leaving this
Friday for Stanford and will be there next week. We would appreciate
anything you can give us. Thanks again.
Don Kaiser
(206) 763-5760
ssc-vax!dlk@UW-BEAVER
...uw-beaver!ssc-vax!dlk
∂16:20 27-Jan: hhb, "ssc-vax!dlk"@uw-beaver/cc/su RLL
Harlyn -
I left some misc RLL and MRS documents
(i.e. stuff for Boeing's Dr Kaiser) on your (ex)desk,
in the back corner of MJH 022.
More MRS memos will be coming soon -- but probably NOT in the
next week.
Thanks for delivering.
Russ
∂16:21 27-Jan: "ssc-vax!dlk"@uw-beaver/cc/su RLL/MRS document/code
Dr Kaiser -
I forgot to mention that there is a group at Symbolics,
including MIT's Phil Agre, who are developing their own version
of RLL in Common Lisp -- called CLRLL I think. I don't know whether
they plan to release and/or market it, or if you are still interested...
But if so, that may be an answer...
wrt MRS: If you want to actually purchase the current MRS system,
send a note to Juanita Mullen (MULLEN@SUMEX),
asking for the licensing agreement.
Russ